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Blogs

Day after with Whiz

Posted by Darren Urban on September 12, 2011 – 11:41 am

Soon the locker room will open for player availability, but first, a few notes from coach Ken Whisenhunt’s day-after presser:

– No updated injury info on LB Daryl Washington (calf) or RB LaRod Stephens-Howling (hand/bicep). I don’t think we are talking anything catastrophic, otherwise I think we would have gotten a hint. Does that mean both will be healthy this week? No way to know right now. Washington is getting an MRI.

– Much talk about the defensive issues (and admittedly, much easier to talk about after a win). Whisenhunt acknowledged there were too many mistakes, too much yardage, and too often guys played what they were supposed to do the wrong way. Given the lack of work under DC Ray Horton, that’s not a big surprise. Realistically, it’s going to be tough to judge them until we are a few games in to the season. It has to be better. The Cards think it will be.

– LB Stewart Bradley is still trying to make the transition (after a short offseason) from the 4-3 to the 3-4. It was interesting to hear Whisenhunt praise the play of Reggie Walker, who came in for the injured Washington. “Stewart needs more reps,” Whisenhunt said. If Washington is down, Bradley will figure into the game plan more, Whiz said. If Washington isn’t hurt, we will have to see if Bradley’s play time grows or if Paris Lenon — who continues to play well — just stays in front of him.

– Whisenhunt noted that QB Kevin Kolb still made some mistakes, like leaving the pocket too early a couple of times. But that knowledge will come with a growing trust of the offense, Whiz added. Kolb knows his mistakes as soon as he makes them, Whiz said — he infrequently has to be told what he did wrong.

– Whisenhunt said he needed to get the “clarification” on Richard Marshall’s unnecessary roughness penalty that negated an interception. I was thinking about this last night: It’s one thing to protect the quarterback, but then, when Joey Porter wraps up Cam Newton in the second half and Newton is allowed to stand (because he’s so freaking big and strong) and finally throw an incompletion, why isn’t that called down? Wouldn’t that have also protected the quarterback? It seems a contradictory thought process between the two.


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61 Responses to “Day after with Whiz”

  1. By Wampag on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    GO CARDS hey D can’t wait to hear your impressions send me an e-mail to m.jordan@nrscouture.com I have a serious human interest peice for you also how bad is hyphen and how does Taylor look?

  2. By CaptainDune on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    I am really curious to see the unnecessary roughness call also. At the game they didn’t show any type of replay and I haven’t been able to find one on espn or anything else. Got anywhere that I can see it in mind Darren?

  3. By DontTakeLoses on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Excellent point on Newton/penalty contradiction.

  4. By D on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Is Max Starks in shape yet? (part of the problem why Kolb is leaving the crumbling pocket)

  5. By Kurt on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    I was pleased to see Porter play under control and hope PP can stay away from the showboating – reminded me of Antrel Rolle and all his 15 yard penalties.

    Whiz and staff have done a great job putting this team together.

  6. By jdcrow59 on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Whew! Sure hope the next 15 are not as wild as this one was. I don’t think this old man could take it. Really enjoyed Kolb’s work, and the run defense. Problems with the Db’s should be fixable. I doubt that anyone expected Newton to play as well as he did. I guess I understand the Marshall call but If Porter’s play was not in the grasp I would like to know how it is defined. No matter how it played out, it’s a win. That’s all that matters.

  7. By Brian on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Maybe the NFL just just give the QBs some flags around their waist and all the defense has to do is grab one…Honestly, how is Marshall supposed to take down a 6’5″ 250lb QB without putting a little extra effort into it? Come onnn Maaan!

  8. By georgiebird on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Darren,
    A win is a win and the Cardinals are already a game ahead of the Rams. If the division is to be won with 8 or 9 wins, this game was a big head start.
    Now on to the defense:
    I have been a fan since 1960 and the Cardinals have NEVER had a big time defense and only a small hand-full of defensive standouts. It amazes me that a team can go 51 years with such a poor record of stopping the opposition on 3rd downs. If this game was just a blip on an otherwise stellar defensive past, I wouldn’t be too concerned. However, yesterday’s game is par for how the Cardinals have played the past 700 or so games. Defensive problems are systemic with the Cardinals and that is why my post of several months ago called for the Cardinals to hire the best defensive coordinator on the market and pay him the going rate. But no, the Cardinals went for a major project in Horton who had never been a DC before. History says that the Cardinals and their fans should be very concerned about the defensive effort on Sunday.

  9. By thefox40 on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    It’s interesting that the defense is being so questioned because Cam threw over 400 yards, but the defense must have done a lot of things right because they only scored 21 points. With all that offense, you would expect the score from them would have been more like 42.

  10. By Darren Urban on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Wampag –

    RE: Email/RBs

    You can send me an e-mail to askdarren@cardinals.nfl.net. Don’t know on Hyphen. Whisenhunt said Taylor should be prepared to play this week.

  11. By Darren Urban on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    CaptainDune –

    RE: Marshall hit

    I have not seen it on video. Haven’t watched my DVR’d game yet.

  12. By AndyStandsUp on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Since I’m doing a “Peter King” and MMQBing, two questions.
    First, on the Newton rushing TD, was it reviewed? ’cause EVERY score is under analysis now, correct?, and it seemed as if the call stood without hesitation.
    Second, did the fumbled hand off look like Well’s fault of Kolb’s?
    Kevin took the brunt with an admission, but it looked like to me Chris’s mistake.

  13. By Darren Urban on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    AndyStands –

    RE: Questions

    1) As I said before, they are looking at the play as it happens and on the initial (pre-PAT) replay. They tell the officials on the field if a further review is necessary.
    2) I’d have to look at it again. Kolb took responsibility.

  14. By kaleb on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Darren, interesting point on the marshall hit, I agree completely. Had one of our other players came in and leveled cam (with shoulders) while porter was holding on to him I bet that would be considered “unnecessary”.

  15. By Rodgerscromartie17 on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    I was saying the same about that newton rush td, didnt look like he crossed but no point in challenging

  16. By Darren Urban on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Kaleb –

    RE: Newton/Porter

    I would guess the same thing.

  17. By lg on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    he will not get find for that hit cause they will look at the video and see that the refs made a big mistake

  18. By cardsblackout on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    i see it like this with how the D played. Cam was very Mobile and very accurate off his back foot. not all QB’s are going to be able to handle that pressure like that. not all Qb’s are going to be able to out run the Blitzes that are coming at them. also even though it was a messy win it is still a win.

  19. By AndyStandsUp on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    I kinda like all the attention that’s been payed towards Newton and the lack thereof for Kolb. Maybe he get more acclimated and less pressure next week.
    As a post script, Wilson did blitz on the first play of the season, like Horton promised. (Been a pet peeve with me.)

  20. By georgiebird on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Darren,
    The long TD pass to Steve Smith where Kerry Rhodes got beat sure looked like Adrian Wilson screwed up-Kerry’s body language was so clear for all to see.
    Darren, I can guarantee you that this love affair between Whiz and Wilson is not going to end well. Wilson is a fading star and Whiz has still not learned to deal with the “fading star” syndrome which has been the bane of most coaches.
    The win on Sunday will downplay that TD but Whiz will pay dearly for his failure to properly deal with Wilson’s fading physical skills and the fact that A-dub was never a heady player to begin with.
    I know most people like A-dub and the Cardinals have made a big investment in him but the TEAM should come first.

  21. By KG on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Nothing about Colledge? I thought he had a really solid day yesterday and showed up with some good hustle on that fumble recovery. What do you think about his performance?

  22. By jocards on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    A win is a win and we’ll all gladly take it I’m sure. Cam Newton was far more accurate than I expected him to be. I heard reports throughout the preseason that he was very inaccurate but perhaps he was merely inaccurate on some particular type of throws and that is what the team was working on over and over to try and improve him…I suspect that is exactly the case because he looked pretty good to me. Now, the team certainly is not where we want them to be but they are 1-0 with a lot of positives to build on. Kolb looked very good, Beanie hit the holes much quicker than we’ve seen in the past, he ran hard, Washington looked very good and PP showed he is an explosive player just to name a few. Some hard work, some fixing and it’s on to Washington. Nice job!

  23. By Shane on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Hey Darren thought you would find interesting: can you pin in cards locker room? Hightower has article in Washington post about how bad he wants to beat us and guarantees a victory.. Would pot link but iPad won’t let me.

  24. By Darren Urban on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    KG –

    RE: Colledge

    He didn’t make any major mistakes, and for an OL, that’s probably a good sign. Otherwise, I didn’t particularly watch him.

  25. By Darren Urban on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Shane –

    RE: Hightower

    With the internet, a “bulletin board” isn’t really necessary anymore.

  26. By brad oneill on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    georgiebird.- i think Wilson’s mistake was not so much a fading star issue as a guy who missed the preseason issue. if it was his fault at all. which i am not convinced it was. Obviously Kerry Rhodes was looking for someone to blame but it could have just been one of those oh crap was that my assignment moments that happen in life.

  27. By Secret on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Darren, When you watch the game on your DVR, notice what Kolb mouths after Joey porter jumps offsides on that second to last 4th down at the end of the game. As funny as it was to see the camera’s catching his reaction, there won’t be a problem between Kolb and Porter right?

  28. By Darren Urban on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Brad (Georgie) –

    RE: Blown coverage

    Wilson took the blame last night.

    http://www.azcardinals.com/news-and-events/article-2/Petersons-Highs-And-Lows/65099045-58ec-43bb-afd1-20ccd885e248

  29. By Don on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Darren, what a great comment about the roughing call and then Newton being allowed to ground the ball with no flag. Of course, we are used to crappy, cheating officiating, but when does it end??

  30. By Darren Urban on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Secret –

    RE: Kolb reaction

    No, I don’t think that will be any big deal.

  31. By John S on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    I was glad to see that comment from Whiz acknowledging Kolb was leaving the pocket too early. I think the first time he rolled right and made the pass on the run and had a guy wide open was just blown coverage for the D, but then he just kept doing the same play and nothing was happening. Kolb does great when he has enough time and I hope the line can get their chemistry together so he isnt constantly pressured. In the mean time I would sure love to see some more plays being called to utilize these tight ends and do some quick release short passes. They never seem to fail.

    I say congrats to the defense. All this talk on every sports show about Newton funny I dont see one thing mentioned on how with the game on the line and first down at the 11 he couldnt get them in the end zone using 4 downs.

    Darren – I know it was brought up before but has any comment been made about any issue with the new field goal holder since Ben Graham was released? I know it could have been a fluke by Feely, hope so since all cardinals games seems to come down to the last minute.

  32. By Brian R. on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    The NFL needs to do away with a lot of rules.Theyre getting more and more complicating to the point where you cant enjoy this physical sport.

  33. By Dave on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Darren,
    It was a great game. A WIN IS A WIN! I live in PA and this is one true source for my Cards info. Can we get more press conferences and the such. I seems we had more in past years. Thanks

  34. By Darren Urban on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    John S –

    RE: Holder

    No one has said anything about the holder.

  35. By joez on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    hope things get cleaned up in a hury, detail sought and perfected. Wilson pull ____ from _____ and step up in secondary, rusty or not pass coverage not your best and this D’s schemme seems to need you on point with the pass more then any season youve been in. Redskins game i feel will be one of the hardest games this season. Wilson my fav so i plug in “heart” and “talent” in empty spaces.

  36. By Rugbymuffin on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Darren I 100% agree with your assessment of the refs needing to call an even game when it comes to the QB protection situation.

    Since you are at work, I will say it for you.

    The Cardinals got HOSED on both calls.

    Since we are complaining about calls, the non-call on Fitz when he was tackled before the ball got there was horrible as well.

  37. By TucsonTim on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    John S -

    Thanks to Porter, Cam actually had 5 attempts to score from the 11.

    Too bad that we didn’t put the 10 easy points on the board and take off the 7 they were gifed at the end of the first half. If the score had been 38 – 14, I doubt there would be so many people crowning Cam today.

    Darren, do you get in on the film sessions? Was their O-line that good or were we that bad, and vice versa. Didn’t they have 2 rookie DT’s?

    We don’t have to look at film to know that Charles Johnson ran around Brown seemingly at will. Kind of a joke when Whiz says Kolb needs to stand in the pocket…what pocket. Who wouldn’t get happy feet with Levi Brown protecting their blind side.

    Is the o-line problem a coaching issue or a talent issue. 4 of the 5 are veterns who have played in this system. While you can excuse the defense for inexperience and a new system, the O-line has no excuses and I for once would like to see Whiz hold someone accountable.

  38. By georgiebird on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Darren,
    1) even though it was a TD, I was very impressed with PP staying with Steve Smith and actually getting a hand close to a perfectly thrown ball.
    2) I won’t be surprised if Green Bay and Dom Capers shut out the Panthers this week in Carolina. Capers will play with Newton’s mind the w
    3) The Cardinal defense actually worked too hard on Sunday-it seemed they were trying to do it 100% physical and 0% with the “grape”. Look for Green Bay to use the brain power.
    4) Are Will Davis and Cody Brown in the NFL ?
    5) As I have mentioned the shortcomings of the Cardinal defense over the past half century, conversely, the Cardinals have been a factory of great and very good wide receivers over the same period- too many to mention. One of my favorites was the oft-injured Dave Williams (U of Washington) who was supposed to be the 2nd coming of Lance Alworth and still has some of the most acrobatic catches in Cardinal history.

  39. By cards62 on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Darren

    I did not have the game so I had to watch pieces of it on NFL Red Zone and read several articles and reviewed the game stats.

    I was wondering how DD played? Did they double team him all game?
    Did Housler play at all and if so how did he do?

    Only one game so we can not overreact, but overall I am happy. We are down 21-14 entering the 4th quarter and many plays have gone against us, and Kevin Kolb gets us the victory. I agree with Whiz last year we do not win this game so I give Kolb an A and chalk up this victory to him.

    Remember Cards fans a win is a win and our team sure looked better than the Steelers, Chiefs, and Colts just to name a few.

    The limited runs of Beanie I saw he looked very good especially the TD run. I know Kolb is taking the blame for the fumble, but from the limited look I had from TV it looked like Beanie dropped the pitch.
    Did any fans at the game have a great view to see what happened?

    Have to give Early Doucet an A for this game also. I hope he continues his play.

    Glad that our defense stopped the run so well, and surprised by this, but unfortunately also surprised our pass defense was so poor after playing well against Rodgers and Rivers.

    Darren – Who do you give our game ball to on defense? D. Washington?
    From what I read he seems to really becoming a force.

    On to the Redskins who looked good against the Giants. Should be interesting to see how Redskins defensive line plays against our offensive line.

    Go Cards beat Redskins. I still have us starting 4 – 0 but this is the game I worry about. On the road in the Eastern Time Zone where we have a tendency to play very flat.

  40. By Eric on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Darren, why isn’t Stewart Bradley getting reps? We brought him in to make a difference and he’s standing on the sidelines? One more question, do you think the Cards would consider moving Wilson to an OLB position? He is my favorite player,and I love his intensity, but his pass coverage is his main weakness. He would be better utilized closer to the line. Maybe the move would extend his career and save some blown coverages.

  41. By Scott H on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Secret -

    Frankly, I’m glad to see that kind of reaction from my QB. I don’t see it as the QB dis-respecting the defense or a defensive player. I see it as a guy who just wants to win. Kolb is clearly a hungry guy who wants to show that he can be a top tier QB in this league now that he truly has the chance to do it. I think he is psyched to be here and I think we’re seeing what kind of intensity he brings. Hope he brings it every week.

    I make no direct comparisons between Kolb and Kurt Warner at this point, but Kurt would also show his frustrations on the sideline and I liked that he did. He was seen throwing a towel in frustration after the Steelers scored the winning TD late in the SB. And he was seen/ heard yelling at the defense on the sidelines late in that classic wild card game against the Packers in 09. Of course, Kurt earned the right to do that by that point in his career. But I like that Kolb is showing that same kind of intensity. Hey, one thing is for sure – it beats seeing your QB kicking back and sharing a laugh ( ala Derek Anderson ) with an O-lineman on the sidelines as his team is getting blown out on national TV…

  42. By georgiebird on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Darren,
    Could you confirm the following on DRC-
    1) he is a 2nd string LCB with the Eagles (behind Asante Samuel)
    2) he had no tackles in the opener vs Rams

    Is there any way to find out if he got into the game?
    Find this all very strange in that DRC is so familiar with the Ram’s offense

    Maybe the Eagles didn’t hijack the Cards that bad.

    Also good to see that Antrel Rolle had a huge personal foul at a key part of the Giants -Redskins game, yesterday.

  43. By Kyair Butts on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Darren: this really has nothing to do with this topic, unless in a related way I bring it back to Kolb which I will try to do, but tonight while watching MNF Gruden made a comment about QBs changing plays at the line to get in to the best play. To your knowledge, what kind of freedom did Kurt Warner have to audible at his discretion in his years here? Does Kolb have that same kind of freedom or is Whiz like Martz, no audibles by the QB ever, even if you are Kurt Warner.

  44. By earlbb on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    Yo Darren, Everyone is making good points, but one thing I noticed was the absense of Fitzgerald, he will have a number of days like yesterday until we get somebody else on the otherside to draw a double team once or twice, when TO gets healed up we need to get him , some one that can make plays and free up Fitz, I see Roberts and Duecet trying but they are not possing a threat to a defense, Caralina D not that good that Fitz aint going for 9 cathes 120 yrd and 2 td , whats up with another name receiver across Fitz may TJ Housh, and also Porter is over rated why wont we go for Briggs who wants out of Chicago, that would help this defense.

  45. By NJAzCardsFan on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    I thought the Cards defense did a good job of stopping the Panthers running game, containing Newton from scrambling like he did in college and they had four sacks for the day. People seem to forget the Cards had two rookie CB’s starting.

    Kolb looked really good in picking up the secondary receiver when Fitz was double teamed and reading the Panthers blitzes.

    Next week should be interesting to see if the Cards can stop the Redskins running game. (I still think getting rid of Hightower was a huge mistake).

  46. By az1965 on Sep 12, 2011 | Reply

    That was a garbage call on Marshall… it turned out to be costly as they scored a TD on that drive.

    BTW, Darren, are you going to post Whiz’s Monday pressor clip?

  47. By Jeremiah on Sep 13, 2011 | Reply

    The fact that Feely got good contact on the kick tells me that it was more him and not the holder. I would imagine if it was the holder the ball would have hooked or faded, but that kick started left and stayed straight the whole time.

  48. By georgiebird on Sep 13, 2011 | Reply

    Darren,
    @Brad Oneill
    An “oh crap was that my assignment” moment for a safety is better known as a Touchdown. A-dub is a courageous football player but he’s mostly a hitter and a mayhem maker but he’s not a cover guy. A-dub will make the Hall of Fame just like an old -time Cardinal HOF safety (Larry) Wilson. Wilson was also a bad cover guy. There is a load of NFL film of Wilson’s #8 chasing wide receivers down the field. L. Wilson made the HOF because he popularized the safety blitz and played games with 2 broken arms. Two very similar players.

  49. By jocards on Sep 13, 2011 | Reply

    Just a random thought…..The Cardinals really get zero respect from the national media. Did anybody see the halftime segment of the NE/MIA game hosted by Chris Berman? He was gushing about Cam Newton and how there was “hope in Carolina”. All Newton highlights, I’d have thought that another first round choice that had a long punt return for a game winning TD might have gotten a mention but he did not. One had to be listening closely to hear that Carolina lost the game. Not a big surprise but annoying just the same.

  50. By Darren Urban on Sep 13, 2011 | Reply

    Cards62 –

    RE: Questions

    1) Dockett created some pressure at times. I wasn’t watching to see if he was double-teamed.
    2) Defensively, I really liked how Washington played. I am hoping he isn’t too banged up. The Cards need him healthy.

  51. By Darren Urban on Sep 13, 2011 | Reply

    Eric –

    RE: Bradley/Wilson

    Wrote a blog post about Bradley this morning http://blog.azcardinals.com/2011/09/13/bradley-still-learning-waits-for-chance/

    Wilson is a safety and he’s not going to move to linebacker. They will use him near the LOS sometimes, but he will not and never be a linebacker.

  52. By Darren Urban on Sep 13, 2011 | Reply

    Georgie –

    RE: DRC

    All I know is what ProFootballTalk.com reported, which was that DRC played just 19 defensive snaps. I don’t know the details.

  53. By Darren Urban on Sep 13, 2011 | Reply

    Kyair –

    RE: QB audibles

    The quarterback does have some freedom here. Warner could check out of a pass to a run and vise versa, and Kolb does the same. They also have signals for the receivers in case the coverage is favorable for a different pass, for instance, a shot down the field.

  54. By Darren Urban on Sep 13, 2011 | Reply

    az1965 (and everyone) –

    RE: Monday presser

    I don’t think the whole thing is going to be posted. We need to check into that.

    UPDATE: For full audio from press conferences, go here — http://prod.static.cardinals.clubs.nfl.com/assets/podcast/podcasts.xml

  55. By Bonner on Sep 13, 2011 | Reply

    Did Rob Housler play,all we heard about was his 4.3 speed at the tight end position and didnt see him in the game..Whats up with that.

  56. By Shane on Sep 13, 2011 | Reply

    Hey Darren if you dont have time to respond I understand but was wondering now that I have watched the game live and on TV for review. Daryl Washington easily had 1.5 sacks in that game and is only credited with 1/2.. On one play him and Schofield got to the QB at the same time almost and sacked him. So that should be a full for one or a half for both. Yet Dwash only has a half and Schofield has zero according to official stats. How is that possible? or is it already past point that it can be changed by NFL and corrected?
    Thanks

  57. By cards62 on Sep 13, 2011 | Reply

    DRC just 19 plays? Now that is wasting talent. I hope the Eagles play him more in the future as I worry his confidence and concentration will suffer which of course will lead to his game suffering. I like to see our X players do well for the most part.
    Boldin, Breaston, Dansby, Rolle, Smith, Kyle V. Bosch as long as they leave us on good terms. The only one I remember hoping would be a miserable failure was Simeon Rice. Played very well for us, but I hated his attitude.

    Fantasy football has Timmy Hightower having a very good day against us. Timmy is another former Cardinal I root for so I will start both Timmy and Beanie in my fantasy football league and sit Chris Johnson against the Ravens. I wish Timmy well as long as the Cardinals get the victory.

    Go Cards beat Redskins

  58. By Darren Urban on Sep 13, 2011 | Reply

    Bonner –

    RE: Housler

    He played special teams. But with tight ends like King and Heap, Housler isn’t going to suddenly play a lot of offense. He’s a rookie. That’s how this works.

  59. By Darren Urban on Sep 13, 2011 | Reply

    Shane –

    RE: Sacks

    I believe all the sacks will be reviewed.

  60. By Chuck 1 on Sep 14, 2011 | Reply

    By georgibird:

    “History says that the Cardinals and their fans should be very concerned about the defensive effort on Sunday.”

    Right on, gb.

    In addition to Horton’s DC inexperience, I don’t believe that the Card’s have enough good defensive players, especially pass rushers.

  61. By Chuck 1 on Sep 14, 2011 | Reply

    By georgibird:

    “Wilson is a fading star and Whiz has still not learned to deal with the “fading star” syndrome which has been the bane of most coaches.”

    gb, I have to, at least partially, disagree with you on this one. I think that Whiz handled the situation with the aging over-the-hill (OTH) RB a few years ago fairly well (I forget his name).

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