Enjoying the dialogue, as always. Well, to answer your question about Belichek, ( was he that dense in Cleveland or that bright in NE? ), I say this – in Cleveland, he didn’t have Tom Brady. In NE, he did.

I think our points actually overlap on this to some extent. Clearly, there are no coaches succeeding anywhere these days without a QB ranking anywhere from good to great. That is not in dispute.

We could go on and on, I’m sure, and it would be a lot of fun. But since Whiz is gone and we are moving forward, let’s just bring this one to a close. Thanks for your thoughts, look forward to more going forward.

Just to add to that long-winded spiel, just about every HC needs the right situation to succeed. Was Belichick that dense in Cleveland, or that bright in NE? Probably neither, I’d say the truth lies somewhere in between. Other than Coughlin and Parcells, it’s hard to come up with too many names that managed to turn around multiple franchises (especially Parcells) without significantly failing somewhere along the line.

There’s a lot of validity in what you’re saying, but let me elaborate a little on the Whiz/Warner connection, as I saw it.

Warner struggled, quite a bit, under a pretty good QB coach in Green. Obviously, I don’t know the reasons why but his issues with ball security didn’t get cleaned up until Whisenhunt arrived. (To those convinced it was gloves, you’ll have to show me where to find a pair that helps with reading defenses, improving field vision, decision making, and automatically putting your arm into the proper position at all times) – Scott, I’m not addressing that to you, just to anyone who trumpets that brilliant theory. Green seemed pretty intent on giving Leinart every opportunity to take the starting job, which, in hindsight, we’d have to say was the cause of his failure here. If we look at Green’s history I think it’s fair to call him a good coach, so to Whisenhunt’s credit he succeeded where Green failed, and it wasn’t just Warner who improved when he arrived. Dockett, Dansby, Rolle, and to be honest, Fitz, played much better during that time as well.

In keeping with Warner’s travels, he played for a guy I consider the best in the business right now, Tom Coughlin, and didn’t do much/get the opportunity there either. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing the obvious about how much Whisenhunt leaned on Warner to get to the heights he did, but if Green and Coughlin couldn’t/wouldn’t get that production back out of him I don’t think we can say what Whisenhunt did was as easy as handing Warner the ball and riding his coattails.

Do I think Whisenhunt made the mistake of giving his system too much credit for Warner’s success? Absolutely. Did he demonstrate a good eye for knowing who could run his vertical offense? Outside of a brief period for Kolb, I think we can agree that either he or Graves (probably both) colossally failed there, and to compound it, never placed any emphasis on giving their choices any significant help in the form of prioritizing an OL. It just became a piece meal project, which was a major disappointment for someone who came from an organization that placed such a strong emphasis on a power run game.

Not saying Whisenhunt belongs in the elite status of coaches, but anyone who can get a franchise like this (no offense to anyone with that comment, just being real) to the playoffs and Super Bowl earned the designation of good. Unfortunately for us, he wasn’t great and that’s what it takes to continue that level of success, as proven many times over by the select few, elite coaches who put a competitive team on the field just about every year.

Got cut short before, but there was more I wanted to say.

I don’t think a good coach is one who can succeed when put into a good situation. Think about it…how many coaches really get “put into” good situations. Not many. IMHO, I think a truly good coach is one who comes into a situation that is certainly less than good and is able to direct the building up process that makes it better. And I don’t really know that Whiz did that here. I think he came into a situation that was already in the process of coming together. To his credit, the process CONTINUED under him, but…key players such as Boldin, Fitz, Warner, Edge, Dansby, Dockett, Wilson, Berry were already in place and established as among the best in the league at their positions.

What TRULY put it over the top was Warner rising back up to the level of an elite QB and leading this team where it had never been before. I believe it could have happened w/out Whiz. I say there is NO WAY it could have happened w/out Warner.

Appreciate your thoughts and – as always – the way they are presented. At the end of your post, you say that if put into the right position, He’ll ( Whiz ) win again. OK. But…couldn’t you say that about just about anyone??? If that is the case, then I don’t know that that really says anything of note about Ken Whisenhunt.

I don’t believe that Whiz had NOTHING to do with the success the Cardinals had from 2007-2009. But THE single most necessary ingredient to that success was Kurt Warner. Period. And I don’t know that Whiz gets the credit for how Warner resurrected himself during that time. Warner is an extremely competitive and proud guy, who I think wanted desperately to get back on top. AND with the WR’s he had here, he had the weapons to do it.

Speaking of those weapons, those guys were already here, having been dtafted by Dennis Green. As were MANY of the other players who figured so promintently in the team’s success from 2007-2009. So,,,I hesitate to give Whiz more credit than I feel he deserves.

After Warner departed, it went to hell on a rocket sled and Whiz was not able to turn it around.

I’ve agreed with most of what you’ve said so far, but I’ll have to differ on your thought that Whisenhunt wasn’t a good coach, and his inability to get another head coaching job proves that.

First, let’s not forget that he is the one who has set expectations for this franchise where it’s at. Prior to his arrival, the only discussions Cardinal fans had was, “do you think we can get to 8-8 this year?” He took us to the Super Bowl, a sentence I never thought I’d say or type. Even Kurt Warner stood at the podium after the victory over the Eagles and repeated the phrase, “…the Cardinals are going to the Super Bowl…” Whatever else he did wrong, nobody can take that achievement away from him.

Second, there are many coaches who didn’t get head coaching jobs this year who have some pretty impressive resumes. Whisenhunt, Lovie Smith (two guys who led their teams to SB appearances), Ray Horton, Mike Zimmer, & Jay Gruden are five examples of guys who have been/likely will be successful HC’s in the league when given another chance/first opportunity, but are now employed as coordinators, or in Smith’s case, not at all. I think Marty Schottenheimer has proven himself to be a good coach but isn’t working right now either, so using a HC job as proof of whether someone is qualified to do it is a little shortsighted. Can we say Mularkey got a fair shot in Jacksonville? Thanks to Carroll and Harbaugh, the flavor of the month right now is largely from the college ranks, but that goes in cycles. The lack of success from Saban, Petrino, Spurrier, etc., made touching a college coach unthinkable not that long ago.

If Whisenhunt is put into the right situation, he’ll win again. If left to picking his own players, or if a situation requires him to be flexible, unless he learned from his mistakes here, he probably won’t. I do expect a significant turnaround in SD, you give him a guy like Rivers and as he showed in the past, the sky’s the limit.

1. Brian Hoyer

2. Kolb

3. Lindley

cut Skelton and draft someone unless it the the backups for the Browns or Colts.

In answer to your response, I’d like to supply a follow-up :

( Here’s your thoughts in toto. I’ve interjected my inside brackets in this fashion
{{{ xxx }}} … ) -

Dieselbomb,

I really have an issue with everyone blaming Whisenhunt for the play of the QBs.
Remember it was Whiz, not Arians who worked with Big Ben first and helped lead the Steelers to a Superbowl. If Whiz picked the QBs, then he takes that blame.

{{{ What you haven’t made note of — and what I think is REALLY important to state — is the fact that Whiz signed a contract extension which included control of the 53-man roster. Everything on the roster is His doing. You’d have to show me (us) that roster moves after he signed the contract extension were not accomplished under either his direct control or at least with his knowledge and acceptance; notably the choice in seeking and hiring KKolb. Mr. Kolb made the team After the contract change which included the above-noted control over the 53-man roster. Even if he didn’t have that (he did, though), he still coached the 53-man roster which included KKolb. Whiz’s Offensice Coordinator sent in plays to the QB – ostensibly with Whiz’s approval – and for the most part, they weren’t fruitful. Little appeared to have been done about that situation. }}}

Mike McCoy seemed to be the guy most of us wanted here and what does he do once landing the charger job? hire Whiz as OC.

{{{ Regarding McCoy :

I didn’t want McCoy, but that’s beside the point – It’s his mistake to make hiring Whiz. I never thought Whisenhunt had as much talent as was purported. I was able to see a river of at least small mistakes attributable to Whiz, suffered by the Cardinals. No telling how long we’ll be paying for those errors. There is much to criticize, but no real space or time to say much. But suffice that Warner is gone and so is the evidence of Whiz’s presumed expertise. Warner made it happen, in my opinion. Whiz had the dumb luck as to inherit a high-quality QB }}}

Coaches coach, players play. The fact that Skelton or Lindley couldn’t hit a wide open receiver in the end zone is their fault. There is a reason they dropped to the 5th and 6th rounds, they had huge flaws.

{{{ No real argument; but I do think that’s an overly simplistic outlook. I think Lindley has an upside; but I don’t think it would ever show in Whisenhunt’s system. Who knows? Lindley and/or Skelton might really shine in the Moore/Arians offense. Perhaps even Kolb. Or not. It’s speculation at this point … informed speculation, but no one has any real control over the future. }}}

And I keep seeing this Kolb won for us garbage. Don’t forget his 1-6 in 2011. His career starting record is 9-12. Heck look at Skeltons record in 2011. Both guys benefited from strong defensive efforts and special teams. In NE, Kolb’s signature win, he passed for 132 yards and is given credit like he was Elway.

{{{ Okay. But I look at Kolb’s signature performance as the 2nd half of the 2011 game against Dallas. He was a game manager against NE; the Defense did a number on Brady and the rest of the Pats. But that’s the benefit of a stout D … making the hurdle to a win very, very short and easy to cross . }}}

Between Kolbs sacks, poor reads of defenses, and his injuries, I’m lost how anyone can think we should go with him this year.

{{{ For this response, in the context of my original post, you’d have to re-read the entry. To directly quote my own entry, I said : Kolb is the best of WHAT WE HAVE, mostly by virtue of starting several games and having some wins. Durability being the biggest problem. He also had to adjust from Reid’s version of the West Coast to Whisenhunt’s ridiculous 8-yard drop with complex Receiver Routes. Couple that with a troubled O-Line and you get “KaBooomb!” in the backfield.

– In other words, looking ONLY at our current roster, Kolb seemed to be the best choice. Who else won in 2012??? And we are talking about 2012, not 2011, and looking toward working to minimize our problems going into the 2013-14 season. ( for this quote I capitalized for emphasis, not out of anger ) }}}

In 2012, he got knocked out of game 6 on a botched handoff and never returned.

In 2011, he got hurt in the 7th game after leading us to a 1-6 start. He returned for game 12 only to be knocked out in game 13 after fumbling the ball on the first series.

In 2010, With Philly, he got knocked out in the first game, He came back for game four but never made it past game 8. He did get a chance to play the last game of the year.

In 22 games over the 3 years (out of a possible 48) played he has fumbled 16 times, thrown 24 tds against 18 picks, he has been sacked 72 times (3.5 times a game) and has a record of 8 wins and 11 losses (one win he threw one pass and got knocked out vs SF)

{{{ If we keep him, we’ve got to work the team around him. Pretty simple. We already know his durability – Four games. That’s it. So, I don’t disagree with the proven history. He MIGHT show up better if the team is built around him, but the major sticking point is the Durability issue, which is the major factor in thoughts regarding his Reliability. Did you notice how few times the Cards worked the Two-Minute? Kolb worked it well, but Whiz went in another direction. But there it is – the Cardinals QB situation. Hoyer has had, what? six quarters of work? I don’t think it’s fair to him or any athlete to judge a future by such a small scale. That’s why I didn’t make any remarks about Hoyer. }}}

But this year is different !!!! Why?

{{{ Unless and until we get a worthwhile QB, nothing is different. }}}

= = =

For the record, I wanted the Cardinals to go after Marc Bulger way back when. Evidently, the Cards did. The Rams didn’t want to cut or trade anyone such that they’d go to a Divisional rival, so they held onto Bulger to the very last second, and Bulger departed for Baltimore. He rode the pines for a year and recovered from his immediate concussion troubles, then called it a career. We never really heard what his thoughts were/are about outlook on playing for the Cardinals. But that’s the last thing I agreed with Whisenhunt on – pursuing Bulger. Offer bucks to make it worthwhile to the Rams and I think we’d have had Bulger … all water under the bridge. I didn’t think Bulger was the answer, per se, he just seemed the better choice than what was out there. The Cardinals then scrambled to get anybody – that anybody was Derek Anderson.

My big knock on Whiz was that when Warner was renegotiating for 2009, that was the Red Flag Alarm that it was almost too late to get a fall-back QB. He made NO MOVE WHATSOEVER!! NONE!! That stuff is Headcoaching 101; and he failed HUGE! What was he thinking? You get your new QB one or two years BEFORE your Number One’s contract expires — Whiz didn’t. That’s UNFORGIVABLE. Three years later we’re pining for the days of back-to-back playoff appearances.

Based on that fundamental death-blow to the Cardinals, anyone who’d still thinks Whisenhunt is worth hiring doesn’t get my respect.

Warner is here and Whisenhunt is here and the Cardinals win – pats on the back to Whisenhunt.
Warner is gone and Whisenhunt is here and the Cardinals lose (three years running) … you give him a job ?? !!! ??? What?!? You’re kidding!!! Is it THAT hard to see Warner is the reason the Cardinals won? He took control of the offense – he tossed out Whiz’s bad play calling when Whiz called a Bum play and made the team work as well as they could – Not Whiz. You got the wrong W … it was Warner.

I also wanted to draft Andy Dalton or Colin Kaepernick. We’ve seen the result of not going for either one of those guys.

Anyway, thanks for your patience. Again … sorry for the long ol’ post.

Scary, but you and I are getting close to some common ground.

Joking, of course, but there wasn’t anything in your last post I disagreed with. Geno Smith at #7 would have to be strongly considered. My biggest concern there is I’d hate to see us miss a legit LT or Pro Bowl mauler at Guard if they’re available. I’m still kind of reeling from the Jonathan Ogden mistake.

But to your main point, no, our QB situation isn’t much and needs improvement. I’m more of the belief that you build from the inside out, but if they came away with Geno @ #7 and Warford or Long @ #38 I’d consider that a pretty good draft as well.