The toss play explained

Posted by Darren Urban on September 17, 2012 – 9:31 am

A lot of people have asked about the toss play the Cardinals ran when Ryan Williams fumbled. The toss was not the reason for the fumble — Williams had the ball in control as he turned upfield, before the Brandon Spikes hit that popped the ball loose — but coach Ken Whisenhunt did explain why he and offensive coordinator Mike Miller made that particular call at that moment:

“They went to a goal-line defense, so we were trying to beat them outside with speed,” Whisenhunt said. “We put Larry (Fitzgerald) on the outside thinking that they would have to put an extra guy out there to cover him to give us an edge. We knew it was going to be tough, but I thought that would give them, with 30 seconds left, with a good punt, no time outs and that that would be tough against our defense.

“I didn’t want to throw it. I had a one-on-one situation with Larry, but I was worried about stopping the clock and giving them too much time. We were playing the odds there. In fact, that’s why I called a time out – or excuse me, challenged the one (incompletion to Fitzgerald on the previous possession) there – because I was trying to get the seconds to continue to run on the clock with a completed pass, even though we were going to punt it.”


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51 Responses to “The toss play explained”

  1. By beardinals on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    I think many people are up in arms only because the Fox broadcast guys made a big deal of it being a toss for some reason.

  2. By brom on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    I wouldn’t question the call because after watching Wiiliams on the previous run, it made sense. I’m just glad the rookie can now chaulk it up as a lesson learned. I’m sure he’ll be thinking about this for a long time. I guess you can call it a blessing in disguise now because you’re sure to get a more conscious player in situations like this. I would hope that the young man takes the time to grow from this rather than beat himself up.

  3. By D on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    I thought Larry was robbed on that play.

    Any news on injuries? I hear Heap will be out for a few weeks?

  4. By Darren Urban on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    D —

    RE: Injuries

    You know how this goes. Whiz doesn’t even talk until 11 and I doubt we will hear much of anything today.

  5. By Andy M on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Huh? I love Coach Whisenhunt, but he is obfuscating and throwing Williams and Mike Miller under the bus rather than accepting personal criticism. The only rational way to play the odds was to take a knee on third down. The Patriots knew that the Cardinals would not pass and take the risk of stopping the clock with an incompletion. They were stacked for a run, so the odds of running more than ten yards for a first down were slight (probably less than 10%). By taking a knee and punting high, the Patriots get the ball deep in their territory with under 30 seconds and no time outs. Of course, the Patriots were going to try to strip the ball and there is always some potential of a fumble in the exchange. That is why you go super conservative in such a situation.

  6. By Darren Urban on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Andy M —

    RE: Kneeling

    Kneeling, rather than running a play, also gives the Patriots about 8 to 10 more seconds on the clock, which isn’t smart. And as for potential, there is always potential for a blocked punt too, or a punt return. There is risk every play.

  7. By clssylssy on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Often times there is more to something than what the fans see and the reason I get so annoyed to fans who constantly criticize. It was nice of Whiz to explain his line of thinking but as far as I am concerned he does not have to justify anything to the fans. Whiz is the Coach…and a VERY, cagey, wiley and intelligent Coach he is! Thanks Coach!

  8. By LadyCard04 on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    I was surprised by the play (thought we’d take a knee and then punt) but personally I would probably have opted to have LSH do that instead of R. Williams. LSH has run that type of play before for us and has more experience in keeping hold of the ball (TWO hands/arms wrapped around the ball). It worked out in the end, but, gosh it’s always a breath-holding moment at the end of Cardinal games.

  9. By Dynosoar on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    First game against New Orleans, last game in New Orleans.

    I think it’d be way cool if the NFC West won every game against opponents outside our division. Imagine the weakest division wining against everyone else, Cardinals with the best in division record. Yeh, I’d like to see that.

    I had the Cards at 12-4 before the season, they won the first of those four losses, so I now have them at 13-3.

    Of course a rookie fumbles, veteran Defensive players know tricks Ryan didn’t see in college to force fumbles. He’ll need to learn from veterans how to avoid those tricks and that will make him that much better.

    I don’t see it as Williams’ fault, rather a good job to the man that forced the fumble and a lack of training (experience) by Ryan Willims. He’ll improve with this experience, look how broken up he was. He’ll improve.

    Instead of knocking him for the greater skill of his opponent I’m grateful the experience didn’t result in a loss and from watching him, he’ll learn what he needs to to become more skilled than opposing defenses.

  10. By Austin on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    It’s easy to criticize after seeing the end result of the play. I had no problem giving Williams the ball, especially after he just broke off 13yds. I did, however, nearly throw up when I saw the ball pop out. Good call, if it had been executed there would be no question about it. So why dog Whiz on the call, as Darren said, ANY and EVERY play has a chance of an oops moment. Kneeling would have left far more time on the clock and that’s never a good thing when Brady’s on the opposite sideline!!!
    GO CARDS!!!!!!!

  11. By Lifetime Fan on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Whiz’s explanation actually makes perfect sense, and I don’t see him throwing anybody under the bus. You try to run outside because if you get the first down the game is over and you hope the play takes more time off the clock anyways. The box was stacked so an outside run is the only way to go.

    Let’s be honest Williams just can’t fumble.

  12. By CardFanInGB on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply


    I actually got to watch this game which was exciting for me. Huge win and loved every min of it. Well except for like 5 mins after the fumble, ha. What I saw is a little worrisome long term though for our running back situation. I love Beenie Wells. He is a beast. What I saw on Sunday was not Beenie Wells. He looks like he is running at about 3/4 speed. Ryan as well.
    Are these guys going to be able to get healthy while playing or do you think we need to shut them down for a couple weeks and let Lerod and Powell spiit some carries? Do you think that is being discussed?


  13. By Darren Urban on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    CardFanInGB —

    RE: Shutting down the backs

    Not going to happen. Guys need to play. I don’t know if shutting them down would change anything.

  14. By Lifetime Fan on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Darren, any chance We-Po gets some carries after this? I remember him being a really secure ball carrier, and he was beast-mode in the preseason.

  15. By Darren Urban on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Lifetime —

    RE: William Powell

    I don’t expect to see Powell active unless someone gets hurt.

  16. By DontTakeLoses on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Good intel Darren, love to read the thought process… good stuff. Big game Sunday…

  17. By drummer-1 on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    @ Andy M..

    I don’t think Whiz threw anyone under the bus if you read the article it says why, HE and mike Miller made the call.. I guess it just any reason to hate on the coach..

  18. By Rufus on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    This was still a silly play call. A pitch is risky and the RB was absolutely careless in not going down and protecting the ball. In both wins, the Cardinals have not shown they can protect a lead and manage the game.

  19. By Rudy P on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Sorry, Darren. There is no way to justify that this was a smart play. It was an absolutely stupid, moronic call. It doesn’t matter what kind of defense the opposing team is lining up in, as yards are not very important in that case.

    There are only two important things to consider in this case. One, you must hold onto the ball. Two, you must keep the clock running. The third thing on the list is getting enough yards to get the first down. Since there aren’t too many plays that can reliably generate the thirteen yards needed for a first down, and even less that won’t severely increase the risk of the clock stopping or the other team getting the ball (i.e. the overwhelming majority of 13+ yards plays happen on passes), you don’t even worry about it. Your best bet is to do something that makes sure you keep the ball and you keep the clock running.

    While I agree that simply taking a knee would have cost them a few more precious seconds, those seconds aren’t worth nearly as much as holding onto the ball. Since the pitch play was obviously not designed to get a first down, the only reasonable reason to do it is to burn a few more seconds off the clock. However, you have substantially increased the chance of fumbling (the worst thing that could happen) for the relatively miniscule advantage of shaving a few more seconds off the clock. While the fumble may not have been the direct result of the pitch, it was certainly an indirect result. Your best bet there is to hand the ball to a power runner so that, when he gets it, he has two arms wrapped securely around the ball.

    Bottom line: Whiz or Miller or whomever was trying to get cute and shave a few extra seconds off the clock when it should have been a secondary concern. Hold the ball, let he clock run down — take the delay of game of necessary – and boom the punt to give a team with no timeouts 20 or so seconds to march down the field without being able to use the minute of it. You get cute when the other team is in control. Not when you are.

    As far as a blocked punt or punt return, take steps to prevent that as well. Have the punter stand a yard or so back, have him punt it out of bounds. You are in control. Don’t take away even the slightest of advantages.

  20. By Donald on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    There was nothing wrong with the play call. Bouncing it outside was the best chance to pick up the first down, though unlikely. I hate the attitude of “well, kneeling is safe.” So? It eliminates any chance to finish the game without punting. If there is a 10% chance to pick up the first down, you take it. First down ends the game right there.

    The play call was fine. Just gotta hold on to the ball.

    And I agree with LadyCard04 – for that play LSH would have been the better choice to run it and upped the chances for it to pick up the first down.

  21. By joe67 on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    I have watched alot of football and I don’t think I have ever seen a team take a knee in that situation on third down. Kind of like saying “we know we can’t play with you big boys, so we will run and hide and take a knee and then punt”. Wow. Strange how everyone sees things differently, especially if you like to rag on the Coach.

  22. By kevin on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Hope Heap isn’t injured hate to lose him. Coach Whiz is the best. The 49ers way overrated looking forward to when we play them. Everytime I turn around someone is calling them the best. They barley beat Detroit our D is better than Detroit. We do not get the respect we deserve never have for that fact. Looks like Williams has the same problem that Hightower had when he was with us and that is fumbling. Kolb played great knew he would been behind him since he arrived. People took pre-season as if it was regular season as the coach kept saying we are not game planning but now we are huge difference. Thought the O-Line did a good job yesterday protecting Kolb. Way to go Cardinals!!!!!!!

  23. By rodgerscromartie17 on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    What I want to know, is why Ryan Williams was even on the field sunday? Doesnt make sense that Whiz is making our starting RB split carries with a back who has never played and was injured ALL last year, obviously he cant be trusted not to fumble. Our 1st round pick should be the one taking the field on sunday right now, he would be more of a contribution to the offense. That is unless he is (in whiz most famous words) “Not quite ready”…. And why dear oh why, are we still seeing those stupid pass plays on 3rd and 3, 3rd and 2, or even 3rd and 1. Wells is a big dude, he can smash for at leased 2 to 3 yards if its needed. some things will never change i guess

  24. By Dynosoar on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Some statistical perspective after 2 games.

    Cardinal’s Sacks = 7, opponents Seattle = 1 and NE = 1.
    (For those worried about our O-Line, their protecting our QB. Buffalo has allowed zero sacks.)

    (Only 3 teams have more, GB = 11 (Clay M. has 6), Chicago and Cleveland have 8 each and Detroit is tied at 7.

    (Some worry about Philly, only 4, SF = 5 and Atlanta = 3)

    Defense Ranking
    Total yrds allowed = 13th
    Passing = 2x Tie 10th
    Rushing = 13th
    Sacks = 2x Tie 4th
    Tds allowed = 4x Tie 1st
    Tackles = 8th
    Interceptions = 12x Tie 12th

    Offense Ranking
    Total yrds allowed = 30th
    Passing = 30th
    Rushing = 28th
    Scoring = 26th
    Td’s = 8x Tie 22nd

    Special Teams Ranking
    Field Goals made = 6x Tie 13th
    Kick Returns = 2x Tie 13th
    Punting = 7th

    O-Line Rankings = 6th
    Sacks allowed = 5x Tie 3rd (only 1 per game)
    QB Hits allowed = 4x Tie 20th (10 allowed)

    Turnover Ratio = -1

    Kevin Kolb has the 10th best QB ratio over 2 games.

    Best Ranking = 6x Tie 1st (2-0 W-L record)

  25. By Chuck on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Bottom line we need better quarterback play,A QB that came extend drives to finish teams off,and win ball control time!

  26. By Sir60 on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    It doesn’t matter what play is called, someone will find fault with it. The only play calling fault I saw was, on second and 2 after a Beanie run, We ran the ball again and lost yardage. Of course I have the benefit of hindsight, but I thought it was a perfect play action opportunity.

  27. By Kevin S on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Darren —

    That is a great point about how kneeling starts the 40 second clock immediately, vs. running a play which will take several seconds (likely enough for the Pats to get at least one add’l play when they took over after the anticipated punt). Along the same lines, I seem to recall the Cards hiking the ball with 5 or 6 seconds left on the play clock on at least one of their last few plays when the clock was running, which did not seem smart. The only thing I could think of was, either they weren’t paying attention, or they were trying to catch the Pats off guard. Did anyone else mention/notice this?

  28. By Darren Urban on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Kevin S —

    RE: Snapping/play clock

    I will be honest, I was not paying attention to the play clock at that point. No one else has brought it up.

  29. By Kevin S on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    It’s easy to criticize NFL coaches from the cheap seats. Belichick, one of the best coaches, if not the best, in the NFL, is taking a reaming from Pats fans on various blogs for settling for a 42-yard field goal when they had plenty of time to run more plays and get closer (or go for a TD). Imagine what those same fans would be saying if they ran a few plays and then there was a fumble or INT giving the ball back to AZ; it would be all about how they have the most accurate kicker in Patriots history and what the heck were they doing trying to get cute with a game-winning FG already in their grasp. I don’t have an issue with the Cards running a play or even a sweep. I do have an issue with Williams not securing the football — that’s a million times more important than a couple yards, and it was clear he wasn’t going to get more than a couple by forcing the play.

  30. By Rio on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Don’t have the time to post right now, on the way to the Bank to pick up my share of plus 13.5 points against New England.
    As i posted last week , thiswas a trap game for New England with Baltimore next week.

    Go cards

  31. By Michael D. Stofko on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    It is pretty obvious from where I sit that the gamble the Cards took on Michael Floyd has, to date, not paid off. With all the top-flight OL-men available to them, unexpectedly, in the first round, the Cards went away from ‘need’ and took Floyd. After two games I have yet to hear his name called, let alone helping to take the pressure off of Fitz. Has anyone else brought up this sore subject? I can’t help but think both the run and pass-blocking would have been enhanced by a firt round OLman, especially now that Levi is down for the season.

  32. By Darren Urban on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Michael —

    RE: Floyd

    I think, two games into his career, it’s a little early to call him a bust. And basically, that’s what you are saying. A certain amount of apples to oranges here, but the Cards took Fitz in ‘o4 when they already had Anquan, had Roethlisberger on the board and McCown at QB. That worked out OK too. Let’s see where Floyd goes. Generally, I thought the offensive line was fine Sunday.

  33. By Kevin S on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    I understand the point about Floyd being only 2 games into his career, and you can’t label a guy a bust after 2 games (or even a full season), but the reality is, that pick will remain a headscratcher to many fans unless he starts to produce. We already have the best or 2nd best (depending on whom you ask) receiver in the game… our #2 and #3 guys are serviceable. Rightly or wrongly, first-rounders now seem to be expected to make an immediate contribution (and in some places, even guys further down the chart — e.g., Russell Wilson, 3rd rounder stepping in at what can safely be assumed to be the most difficult position of all to move into). As much as the team can defend Floyd — and their choice of him — by saying the plan all along was that he’d be the #4 receiver, I don’t think fans are going to be satisfied.

  34. By Darren Urban on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Kevin S —

    RE: Floyd/receivers

    No offense, Kevin, because I have no recollection if you fall into this category, but I was bombarded with comments about how Roberts stinks and Doucet stinks and how this team needed another receiver. I understand about the first-round contribution thing, and generally you are right. Fleming and Bethel in this draft class already are doing things.

    Look, I know fans aren’t going to be satisfied. I’ve seen that all day today after this team got to 2-0 and won in New England. Anyone who read my stuff knew this was the likely path for Floyd early. No one wanted to believe it, or were pissed. But Whisenhunt must be doing something right.

  35. By jason marcus on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    WOW PAT CAT in the hizouse , I missed those 2 plays, man the Cards looked great, I think Kolb stepped up his game big time ,if he can take out Philly hes gonna be our starter. How would Skelton have done one can only dream …..but Kolb did it with class not pretty but he got the job done, way to go Kevin go Cards

  36. By Kevin S on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Darren, thanks for responding. I was not one of the people who thought we needed another receiver, but I’m sure there were people that thought we did. Conversely, I will acknowledge that I wasn’t vocal about being unhappy with the Floyd pick the way, say, John the draft guy was, but his sentiments largely matched mine.

    And I know, Darren, that you’ve pointed out all along that this was Floyd’s path. I am not a football expert by any means, and I trust the Cards’ brass more than I’d ever trust my own gut. By saying I thought that pick would remain a headscratcher, I’m not trying to say it was a bad pick… just that fans are going to be hard to convince.

  37. By philly cards on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Mike floyd is a young player and what is whizs history so far with the youth? They either get hurt and don’t develop or they don’t progress and get traded.
    And I just don’t get it with him getting a mulligan for the end of the game when at this point there is a pattern.
    They make that kick are we saying the same things about him?

  38. By Texascard on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Way to go cards. Thank you Darren. The reason patriots kicker missed is because Calais campbell was lined up on the right shoulder of the center. Kick blocking specialist. Watch the replay. The kicker aimed left center to avoid block and pulled wide left. Way to go Calais u made that happen whether people get it or not. It was not a random miss.

  39. By bluepitt on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    “Williams had the ball in control as he turned upfield, before the Brandon Spikes hit that popped the ball loose ”
    WOW I dont know a single RB that would hold his elbow out that far in the trenches, let alone when the game is on the line!!!!!! WOW most will cover that thing with bolth hands like it is a new born baby!! WOW if that is secure then that explains it all on the Cards fumbling isues!!!! Watch it!!

    Watch it…27-30sec pause and quick klick pausing it. and tell me that ball is held the way it is taught from popwarner to the NFL!!!! What ever they got to say!!!! I watched Hightower fumble near the Goal line in SF it looked like he got knocked out for a second and he didnt carry the ball for a long time after that!!!!!!

  40. By bluepitt on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    “They went to a goal-line defense, so we were trying to beat them outside with speed,” Was a good Idea, but your rook didnt try and hit the eadge he had posably one man that would have contested him going around the corner turning up field, but he didnt try he did what most rooks do tried to turn it inside and make sumptin out of nutin, I wouldnt care except for the fact the game was on the line and he schould have never been the one with the ball, untill he has eased his way in to the rotation like most 1st year players (yes it is his first year playing in a true NFL game) like Hightower & Wells had to do.I just dont get it?

  41. By bluepitt on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    I dont understand why people like you dont understand that fans pay millions of $ to suport the team, and when a Coach makes a bone headed mistake he kind of needs to try and explain his thinking, otherwise they would say Whiz’s Arizona Card’s rather than “Your Arizona Cardinals” leting us (the fans) know that they know who pays the bills and want fan suport, and with fan suport comes fan critacisum (? Spelling) that is the way it is, and has been from the begining.
    So what is so hard to understand?Fans wait all week for the game hoping to let stress out and have a good time tons of emotion goes in to being a die hard fan!

  42. By bluepitt on Sep 17, 2012 | Reply

    Well said, but I dont think it needed to be Williams out there at all, 13yrd run or not! Under that thinking why put the hands team out for an onside kick? Because they have the traning and skills to put the game in there hands, Williams did not have the tools, exp or traning in the NFL to put this game in his hands!! FACT

  43. By Brian R. on Sep 18, 2012 | Reply

    I know throwing an incompletion would stop the clock but 1v1 on Fitz your chances of an incompletion are low. I would have went for a quick slant pass to Larry.

    I’m not head coach, though.

    Good job Mr. Whizenhunt and good job Arizona Cardinals!

    Give ’em Hell, D!

  44. By joannamcgrath on Sep 18, 2012 | Reply


    Not sure where you get your numbers when you say that kneeling would have added 8 to 10 more seconds to the clock. A straight run up the middle for a short gain eats maybe 3 seconds off the clock, 5 seconds tops.

    With no timeouts left in the game, I spot the other team 3-5 extra seconds any day of the week given the field position the Pats were going to be looking at. A coach has one goal in that situation: to ensure the game doesn’t end on an unfortunate or disastrous turnover.

    Kneeling was clearly the correct call in that situation. Williams never, ever should have had that ball in his hands.

  45. By Darren Urban on Sep 18, 2012 | Reply

    joanna —

    RE: Seconds

    You kneel, the play is dead as soon as the knee hits the ground — no defensive touch needed — and the 40-second play clock (for fourth down) starts immediately. By the time the play clock would have started had Williams not fumbled, I guarantee it would have been 8-to-10 seconds compared to a kneeldown. I don’t think that’s hard to comprehend. I completely disagree that you kneel there.

  46. By Louisville Card on Sep 18, 2012 | Reply

    @ Philly Card

    How many Rookie receivers have great rookie years? Not many other than Randy Moss…just because Whiz errs on the side of caution on a player doesn’t mean he’s a bad coach it actually means he’s a great one that doesn’t want to ruin a player…

    You also say that Whiz doesn’t devolp draft picks which is crazy the team is almost exclusively Whiz picks and at 9-2 the last 11 games they’ve played, I think he’s doing something right…they just beat the patriots in Foxboro on their opening day and are 2-0 how can you say Whiz needs to go? You sound like an idiot…

  47. By brom on Sep 18, 2012 | Reply

    It’s easy to second guess the coach on just about everything, but the truth is, this team hasn’t been too exciting before Whiz came to town. Whiz understands the necessity of having a double threat on each side of the receiving core. I don’t know all of the details, but I think it was a mistake for the Cards to let Boldin get away. I’m thinking the coach is trying to fill the void opposite of Fitz. There’s only so much money and available players to go around. The staffs have to do the best they can and sometimes the dice just don’t roll your way. When the dust settles and you’re dealt your hand, you then have to put your teaching skills to work. that’s exactly what Ray Horton is doing.

  48. By brom on Sep 18, 2012 | Reply

    I’m with you Texascard. The Cards caused the kicker to pull the field goal try to his left, because of the pressure coming from the middle and the right side. PP was also closing in from the right. Had he aimed down the middle, there was a chance for a block. Also, the Cards were in his head for being known as the #1 field goal blocking team. Great job special teams!!

  49. By philly cards on Sep 18, 2012 | Reply

    @Louisville cards
    Adrian wilson darnell dockett and most of the teams key players are holdovers or free agents.thanks to graves.
    Patrick peterson is a freak so whiz did nothing there. I’m speaking about people like drc toler and others who’s development cost us two seasons and 50 mill in cap space. Name a player who whiz drafted who has a probowl or two consective good seasons. Outside of pp.
    I noticed you called me dumb and changed the subject without providing details, if ur busy ill wait.
    To say we are 2-0 means what with a goal of a superbowl win? Too many are quick to give praise to small things or the other teams error. I need consistency and sharpness from hc. In the past there were inbedded excuses there are none now.

  50. By keith on Sep 18, 2012 | Reply

    We are 2-0, and have beaten two good teams. The team is far from perfect, but our record is perfect. Whiz bashing at this point is absurd.

    Philly Cards: I started to write “If no one ever responds to Philly Cards, will he stop posting (please?)”
    Instead, here are some good young players drafted under Whiz: Acho, Bethel, Calais Campbell, Doucet, Fleming, Massie, Peterson, Roberts, Schofield, Sherman, Skelton, LSH,
    Toler, Washington, Dan Williams, Ryan Williams. Plus undrafted free agents M. Adams, L. Sendlein and Reggie Walker. And a number of others for whom the jury is still out. The personnel on this team is a million times better than when he got here in 2007, and even in down years (like 2011) the team is significantly better.

  51. By Louisville Card on Sep 19, 2012 | Reply


    You named the only two players on the defense that are pre-whiz and Fitz is the only other key player that was before whiz too so your arguement doesn’t make sense. Campbell, Washington, PP, Williams, Carter, Acho, Scholefield, they are the heart of the defense and all Whiz picks. If you can’t see the young talent that whiz has drafted you’re blind. Name one FA difference maker that graves has added besides Rhodes and Lennon that’s still on the team?

    You want me to name a player that’s had two good season’s? How about Campbell and Washington.

    You also seem to forget that whiz is 9-2 in their last 11 games how much more consistency do you need to give a guy a little credit for doing a good job. They just beat the Pats on their home opener for christ sake…

    And I didn’t call you dumb I said you sounded like an idiot saying Whiz should go and replace him for Horton. Which you do…

    Do you think that Steelers fan’s post on their blog that Lebeau should replace Tomlin? Horton is a great defensive coordinator but I’ll take Whiz any day…

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